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Leaders In Payments
Leaders In Payments
Women Leaders in Payments: Monika Liikamaa, Co-Founder & Co-CEO at Enfuce | Episode 419
“This episode contains explicit language and may not be suitable for all audiences.”
The journey from developer to co-CEO of a global payments provider isn't for the faint of heart. Monika Liikamaa knows this firsthand. As the co-founder of Enfuce, she's built a company that processes cards for 24 million cardholders worldwide, pioneering cloud-native solutions when the industry thought it impossible.
Monika's story begins in northern Sweden, where Finnish parents raised a future engineer who would transform multiple industries. After cutting her teeth in telco during Finland's Nokia boom and subsequent crash, she found herself building a bank from scratch as a consultant. This experience sparked a revelation – she was a builder at heart, drawn to challenges others deemed too difficult. When offered the chance to create a financial institution capable of handling three countries, three currencies, two time zones and revolving credit, she couldn't resist.
What makes Monika's leadership philosophy stand out is its refreshing directness. "Openness, honesty and trust," she explains, form the bedrock of effective leadership. She advocates for diversity not as a checkbox exercise but as a competitive advantage. With approximately 50% male and female employees representing over 20 nationalities, Enfuce harnesses diverse perspectives to create more effective payment solutions. This approach acknowledges a simple reality in payment design: women make the majority of household payment decisions, yet have historically been underrepresented in designing those very systems.
Perhaps most revealing is Monika's response to crisis. When UNICEF needed relief cards for Ukrainian refugees, her team delivered in days what normally takes months. This experience crystallized what drives her – solving meaningful problems that make a tangible difference in people's lives. It's the same spirit behind the "Fortitude Pledge" she launched, challenging payment industry players to combat human trafficking and financial crime.
For those looking to enter the payments industry, Monica offers practical wisdom: understand problems deeply, gain perspective from different sides of the table, and remember that no company has been built exactly like yours before.
Welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast, where we talk to C-level leaders from across the payments landscape. We'll be discussing the products and services that impact the payment space today, as well as trends and predictions for the future of payments. We will also hear stories from our guests about their journeys to the top.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to the Leaders in Payments podcast. I'm your host, greg Myers, and this episode is part of our Women Leaders in Payments month, something we do every year in the month of July, and it's one of my favorite times of the year. This year's theme is redefining leadership, influence, impact and innovation. So those are some of the things you're going to be hearing about during the month of July. So first, a special thank you to our sponsors. Our title sponsor is WorldPay, our participating sponsors are VisiPay and Payrock, and our episode sponsors are the Clearinghouse and Genico and PaySafe. So special thanks to those companies. Today, we're lucky enough to have as our special guest Monica Licama, and she is the co-founder and co-CEO of Enfuse. So, monica, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2:So let's start off with a little icebreaker. So if you could have dinner with any woman in the world could be past or present who would that be and why and what type of restaurant would you go to?
Speaker 3:I would definitely choose Eleanor Roosevelt because I do think that she did a lot of changes and, looking at that era that she was living and the challenges in the world, I think that would be an interesting dialogue and there would be a lot of learning opportunities. Of course, being a Finn, I would take her to a Finnish restaurant, a nice one, so that we can sit down and have a long dinner. So probably Olo, which is a very nice Michelin restaurant in Helsinki, would be my place of choice.
Speaker 2:Okay, awesome, and so let's talk a little bit now about your background and career. So maybe give us a snapshot of your career, maybe even where you grew up, where you studied, and then what led you into payments.
Speaker 3:Yes, so I'm born in Sweden to Finnish parents, so I'm born in the north part of Sweden and did my first 20 years on that side of the border. So I'm up north from the border of Finland and Sweden. And then I met my to-be husband and also decided to move to the Finnish side. I've been studying engineering, so been a developer during my early career and then ended up in the telco industry. So I became an adult during the depression in Finland and then, of course, as we started racing and we had those whole Nokia years and what that did to the Finnish economy, and at that point I was in the telco industry. So I had a mobile network operator and lived the dot-com boom and the crash. And then I founded my first company back in 2006, where I ended up as a consultant building a bank from scratch. So in one of the biggest merchants groups in Finland S Group they had decided that they want to build a bank within the group because they had all the restaurants, the hotels, the fuel stations, the food stores etc. And making sure that they could control also funds would be a good thing. So when I went and built the bank I was the test manager during the first phase of the build and then very much focused on the card payments and making sure that all the payments flew correctly. And then we did a successful launch back in 2007. I had already two kids, so then I was actually pregnant with my third child. And then, when the bank launched, I then went on maternity leave and that's when the bank CEO started calling and saying like hey, monica, you've been part of building this, Wouldn't you want to come and make sure it runs properly, also in production mode? And I said that would be interested. But what would the position be? And then I was offered I wouldn't say I was offered, I was offered a development manager role and I said no, not interested. And then they said, okay, but would you come and become the CIO, a management team member? I said yeah, that would be interesting. So that's what I did, did that for some years, had my fourth child and then in 2000, and, yeah, this is when you start getting old-ish and probably, if I look at my LinkedIn CV, I would remember better the days.
Speaker 3:But around 2015, I was 14, I was doing my executive MBA, because I started apparently becoming a bit bored as everything was growing and very smooth, and then I probably realized that I'm a builder, so I like hard stuff, I like to really dive into challenging and get shit done, as I usually tend to say, and at that point I was offered a position to start building mobile payments and card business from scratch Not too far from the bank though, because one of their service providers in the core bank side was the one who offered me the job. So then I left the bank and I headed to the other side of the table, the service provider side. We built the processing issue processor side, and that's when I met my to-be co-founder, denise, and I did my executive MBA. And then I wanted to do more, but the owners of that business they were happy with focusing on the Nordics, in particular Sweden and Finland, and for me that was a bit too small, a bit too easy, apparently. And then I quit my job, did my thesis and then started thinking of what to do when I grow up and gravitating a lot through becoming an entrepreneur, like controlling or at least influencing my destiny.
Speaker 3:And as I had four kids already then, and I had a lot of mortgage to pay, and at that point none of us me or my husband weren't very wealthy, so to say, money-wise, and I took a job, so I ran a small project at a traditional bank and during that time I was then presented with a proposal that if I would want to come and build a new financial institution from scratch, and I was like, no, I've done that before, but how are you going to run the infrastructure?
Speaker 3:And they were like, yeah, well, we want something really good and really scalable. We are going to do consumer products and we're going to do closed loop fleet product, and we want to do it in three countries, three currencies, two time zones and having also revolving credit. And I was like, yeah, that sounds like hard enough. And that's how then Enfuse was born, and that's pretty much. And then now, for the past nine years, I've been building Enfuse and we've been scaling. I think now we're I actually don't know how many countries we're alive in, but we have around 24 million cardholders globally that we are working with, and that's been where we are scaling now. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, a quick, another fun kind of question. Then we'll get back to Infuse. If you're asked to come on stage, what would your hype song be?
Speaker 3:If I would be asked to come on stage. Well, I do like the Top Gun anthem a lot and I really love the Top Gun movie the original one but I also like Panic at the Disco, like High Hopes. Those are definitely two of my go-to songs.
Speaker 2:That's great because you know, obviously we're doing 14 or so episodes this month and I've recorded almost all of them and I've yet to have two people say the same thing. So it's kind of fun to ask the question. All right, well, let's go back to Enfuse, Maybe talk about sort of the company a little bit more, maybe a little bit about what you do on a daily basis and what excites you about what you're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, what we do as Enfuse is that we enable different types of players to issue cards, and what that means in practice is that we're predominantly focused on banks and lending, so enabling banks and lenders to issue either for debit processing or then also for lending revolving credit products. But then I think, one of the key big verticals where we have, from a technical side, also our licenses we are an EMI under the Finnish Supervisory Authority and also the UK FCA and it means that we can enable big players to issue cards. So we take the whole burden of the issuing, not just the technical processing. So we enable players like Octopus Electroverse, which is a big UK and European energy company, to issue credit cards to their EV customers. And then we have banks that we process for, and then we also do a lot of import and other types of, let's say, card-related products. So, for example, to the Finnish government, we enable them to issue the cards both for the Finnish Defence Forces but also for the refugees and social benefits cards. So it's a pretty broad portfolio but very much focused on banks and lenders. And then EV fleet mobility, fuel providers transitioning to EV, then expense management and employee benefits.
Speaker 3:And you ask what does a typical day look like?
Speaker 3:I have no idea.
Speaker 3:I don't think any day is the same, and I think that's also why I feel that, even though I've been doing this for the past nine years, we're only getting started.
Speaker 3:So I think when I look back at my career because I do believe that career is something that happens, whether I like it or not then how it looks like I can, of course, influence. But looking back at my career, it's taken an average four to five years. So when I start building or doing something to that I feel that OK, now I kind of hit the ambition feeling and then I need to move on and we then choose, of course, as we want to be number one in the world and very much focused on becoming number one in Europe. Now, of course, we also enable processing outside of Europe, so both in Latam in Brazil and then also in the Middle East, but our focus is really to be a number one player within Europe, because we do think that, if you look at the European market, we have different languages, different cultures, different currencies, so it's a very complex market. So succeeding here is a good baseline for then expanding outside.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about leadership and lessons learned. So over the course, I would say the last 10 or 15 years, leadership has changed a good bit. I mean, covid drove some of that, but it was being changed anyway. So what do you consider modern leadership and how do you sort of embody that on a daily basis?
Speaker 3:It's a good question. I personally do think that my leadership style has probably not fundamentally changed. Of course it's evolved because the older I get, the more I learn about stuff. Of course it impacts in how I lead. But I think openness, honesty and trust, like building trust, has always been a key fundament in how I am. But I also understand it's challenging because the way I am is I'm very direct, I don't believe in political games, even though I understand that there's a lot of politics in a lot of things, and I think that's also probably one of the big reasons why I decided to become a founder and build a company that I never worked at because of that. But then understanding that when you get a lot of different people with a lot of different backgrounds, with their biases, depending on where they come from, what cultural background they have, it is going to be challenging.
Speaker 3:But I do think that in order to strive and grow something big, it's really important to be honest and I think it's to get to know people, because you really don't know anyone else's struggles unless you walk a bit in their shoes, and the only way to do that is communication and looking back. I think communication is the hardest thing, and people is the hardest thing, and if I look, I tend to joke that I don't like people and I'm like waiting for AI to come and, you know, make everyone redundant, understanding, of course, that that's not going to happen. But what I mean is that I really like working with smart people, like people who want to do good and who have integrity, and I think those are the things I hope also to leave behind as some sort of a legacy, and I actually wrote my obituary some time ago because I actually had, I think I read somewhere and I don't, unfortunately, remember exactly where, but people focus too much on like how does my CV look and what can I do to impact, instead of maybe focusing on like when I'm not here anymore, what do I want people to say about me? And when you write that down and then you look at it and think about like, in order for me to be remembered this way, what should I do every day? And, of course, being merciful to yourself that you know everyone has bad days, but I think the intent matters and I keep saying it also to my children.
Speaker 3:But there are two words that will really help you throughout your career. But the magic only happens if you mean it, and that's I'm sorry. And then can you please help me? So, asking for advice and help and then making an apology if you fucked up, I think those will carry, but they only work if you mean it, because I do think that us people, in the end of the day, we have fortunately, this born quality of sniffing out people that are not sincere.
Speaker 2:Right right. Well, when you step back and look at your life or your career or both, have you had those sort of defining moments? I call them like aha moments, but those moments in time that really maybe changed the trajectory of your career, your life.
Speaker 3:Yes, definitely, I think. In general, of course, I would say, meeting my to-be husband when I was young. I was fortunate enough to find the love of my life when I was 19. And that finding a person that is very grounded and still very ambitious. With him, we left the North because there weren't very much jobs and started building our life, and he's also a partner in a building company and they've been building that for a long time. So having that is, of course, one thing that I strongly believe influenced the way I am today and where I come on my journey.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, if I look at other moments, yeah, I think during my younger years, especially working very male-dominated industries, being a tech person myself, there were a couple of moments in time where I decided that, based on how I was treated, I would not tolerate that. I remember I was a very young developer in a really high fly consultant company. I was so happy and proud to have landed that job. And then I was a junior developer in a project and then the project director or whatever, came and something had gone wrong, and I don't even remember what it was, but he started screaming at me that it was my fault. And then there was this lady who was secretary and she was like you can't be like that. You can't, on a junior developer, start screaming on something, and I think what happened then I went to the bathroom, I cried my balls out and then decided I'm never going to tolerate being pissed on that way. But I also learned that it could have been saved if he would actually apologize, which he never did, and I think that was a learning moment for me how not to treat people, so I didn't want me to be treated that way. And then, of course, I think from a career perspective, when I was part as a consultant building S-Bank in S-Group, and then we went live and it was like we worked our asses off, like seriously, because the only thing that couldn't change was the timeline, because there was a legislation change and the group would have lost a lot of money, so like the timeline had to be, you know, strict, and then we worked a lot and that pride of succeeding together and then being asked to join the team to then clean up, kind of the things that we did, I think those have been a very pivotal moment also in my career, like really seeing that if you work your ass off. Together you can really make big things happen.
Speaker 3:And then, of course, in Enfuse history, when we became the first one to put processing in public cloud, nobody else had done it and we were like, ok, but that's the only way to scale globally, because I wanted to build a company that was better, faster and globally scalable. And then we did that and succeeded. And today it's kind of de facto stranded. If you're not cloud native, everyone is like that's weird. But having that courage to do that, I don't think. If I look back now, it wasn't like, oh, oh, my God, are we going to do it? It was like, okay, this makes sense, let's do it. But of course, looking back now, as you asked, those have been those key moments.
Speaker 3:And I think then the last, maybe key moment, at least for now in my career, was when the war in Ukraine started and UNICEF US contacted Visa US, who contacted Visa Europe, who then contacted us, and it was a Thursday morning. We got an email and I think it was like in March, so the war had been going on for maybe a month or so and and like the refugees were pouring out and we were asked like, could you help us to issue a relief card so we could put cards, money on the card and give them out at the blue spot. So when the refugees come, because that was a big challenge, like instead of going with cash or IOUs and stuff and I remember that Thursday morning we sit down with Denise and we decided like of course we can. And then Thursday afternoon we decided we're going to do it for free. And then by Friday morning we had gathered 100,000 plastics from our card manufacturer as a donation. And then during the weekend we worked night and day to get everything done.
Speaker 3:And then on Monday when we informed that we can ship the cards by Wednesday to the Polish border, we got an answer like no, no, we just asked if you could, because they weren't ready to take on the process. They didn't believe that anyone could do it, because it normally takes like six to eight to 12 months and we did it over the weekend. But what that did internally to the company still makes me really proud, because we showed above and all to ourselves that when things matter and we know our shit, we can really get things done. And of course after that we've done a lot of relief programs as well. But those have been those defining moments throughout my career. When I look back, that has then, of course, fueled also to want to do even more and become even better. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, what do you think is something that women leaders bring to the table that our payments industry needs more of?
Speaker 3:I think, in general, diversity is important. So whether you sit or stand peeing, I don't think it's matter. I think that there are many different types matter. So if I look again at end use, I think we are around 50-50, male and female, we are like 20 plus nationalities, et cetera. Culture matters. What that means is that we solve problems better when there are more views on what the problem actually is.
Speaker 3:And I think that doesn't just speak for the payment industry, but definitely in general. And of course it by then would start gathering facts and figures Like out of the households making payments, women are the ones that do the majority of decisions of where money is deployed, meaning it would be stupid if women were part of designing the solutions that they are actually the ones using. So I do think it's important to have diversity in general, and what that needs to get there is equity. So I do think that a lot of guys who have done a great job work their asses off. I love to see even more enabling others to thrive, because I do think that by that we can become even stronger. And then to us women, I do hope that we can learn much more from the guys to support each other instead of competing with each other, because in the end of the day, it's not a one winner takes all. Everything that we collectively do better makes things better, okay, well, let's talk a little bit about innovation and impact.
Speaker 2:So, as you know, our industry is changing very fast, very innovative industry. How do you, as a leader, stay innovative?
Speaker 3:Understanding problems. I think, in general, focus has been a big part. So, in order to become the best I always talk about, I want to win the Olympics. Big part. So, in order to become the best I always talk about, I want to win the Olympics. And it's very hard to win the Olympics unless you choose what do you want to win the Olympics for? Like it's decathlon or rowing or whatever, or a combination. But you need to understand because if you try to do everything, you become very thin and you become mediocre and average.
Speaker 3:So focus really leads to that, and what that means in practice is that in order to innovate, we need to understand a couple of dimensions. First of all, who are our customers, who are the customers we want to serve and what are their challenges. So how do we help them? But also somehow understanding that, especially when it comes to the banking and lending side, and then the fleet fuel mobility, ev transition, employee benefit, etc. Those businesses are very focused on solving a certain problem, which means that it's our responsibility, in order for us to stay relevant, to actually understand that, based on the whole technical infrastructure, our capabilities, the compliance and security items, what can we help them with so that they can become even better technical infrastructure, our capabilities, the compliance and security items. What can we help them with so that they can become even better?
Speaker 3:And I know it's fortunate, but, as you said, it's a very fast moving industry, also from a bad perspective, meaning like with the introduction of more AI comes more deep fakes. There's a lot of human trafficking, money laundering, terrorist financing a lot of bad stuff. But also understanding that paying with cash is even worse. So how can we enable, through digital payments, much more security, you know, dignity through payments, et cetera. So making sure that the unbanked becomes banked. How do we do financial inclusion?
Speaker 3:So, in the end, understanding the challenges and I do think like trying to solve like this big, hairy, audacious goal, like really understanding something really big as a problem, because I do think that if we only focus on small problems, we tend to lose the innovation, because then we do the same thing a bit differently and that's not innovative, but like looking at something really big and understanding, of course, then legislational shifts coming, and also now I mean like look at the news. Unfortunately, the world is filled with problems to solve now more than ever. So I don't think that innovation should or will stop. So it's a constant being aware and awake in order to move forward. Okay.
Speaker 2:What's one change or trend in the industry that you're keeping a close eye on?
Speaker 3:Of course, legislation is very important and for us, one of the challenges that I see that I'm looking at is, of course, this whole geopolitical turbulence, which means that there's a lot of need and wants and wishes to run on-prem again sovereign clouds, etc. So they're like being European, and especially from Finland and the Nordics it's an interesting viewpoint on seeing the term where we have China, we have US, then we want to be sovereign. So I think there's a lot of technical restrictions coming up in legislations that are based out of fear. So trying to tackle that and not being part of building something stupid just because some political weirdo thinks it's scary, but also like making sure we can explain how we govern and how we protect the data, because what we do is still like it's payment data, so it's like personal data and then it's your money, so the only thing that it's equally important is health data. So I think, in that sense, it's a big challenge looking at that. Then, in general, of course, I'm very interested in understanding where this whole environmental aspects are going. What is happening actually globally when it comes to now focus on the environmental aspects and reporting, etc. Like trying to really strengthen the narrative, like compliance and regulation reporting is good, but it's not there as a purpose itself, that there is actually something bigger on the other side and we should actually, as businesses, focus on solving the challenges and, as such, we should meet the reporting requirements.
Speaker 3:If I look at ourself again, we are under the payment card industry data security standard.
Speaker 3:There are standards and reporting requirements to the right and left, and I always said like when we are one step ahead, when we really focus on not meeting the bar but exceeding it, it actually means that we will be compliant to anything at any given time, and that should be business as usual.
Speaker 3:But the way we do it should be focused again on solving actual problems. And I do think that now I can finally start seeing the impact, with the bigger brands wanting to work with us because they can't afford to jeopardize their reputation, which means that they have not had the courage to do anything innovative because their reputation has been so needed to be safeguarded. So working with someone our size has felt like yeah, yeah, but we can't do it. And now, finally, because we have proven over and over again that we actually take these things really seriously, and now, as our laters, we launched the Fortitude Pledge, where we actually pledged the payment industry players to sign up and commit to doing whatever they can to eradicate human trafficking, money laundering and terrorist financing in their services. So it's not about being perfect, but it is about raising the bar and, as such, becoming better than just like trying to get by with the standard minimum requirements. So I think mediocrity is something that I really dislike, whether it's in people or companies.
Speaker 2:Right, totally makes sense. So how do you think female leaders can influence the future direction of payments?
Speaker 3:I would actually say more like how can leaders influence? But I think, with women, of course, if and when we collaborate more together and as I said earlier, that when we realize that you know there aren't a limited set of seats at the table and if you feel like that, then fucking make your own table. So like don't go for excuses. Like if you have a mission and you want to change something for the better, reach out, ask for advice, ask for help and you should get it. Like I don't feel that I have ever been hit by a glass ceiling. I have been hit by ambition ceiling, but that's gender irrelevant. So people who are good enough, that's boring, but I do think that as women, by really helping each other collaborate better, we will change the whole industry for the better, as there is still so few of us and, as such, the services are very built from a male perspective, because, in the end of the day, whatever you feel that things are, there is some differences in male and female and, of course, understanding that once you become older, what I've actually seen that I don't like with us women and I don't think it's the individual's fault it's just something to be mindful of and also when us to support is this thinking that you have to be perfect in order to start. You know, like when we started looking at at hiring more people and we put out ads and we realized that we got really few female applicants, because we realized that and I think there's probably a lot of studies around this but women have this tendency to actually read application and think like, ah, I haven't done that, I don't have this experience, I don't know that. And then, from a male perspective, ah, interesting company, I would love to work there, I'll apply. And I think if we could get more of that and I do think it comes from earlier stages, like earlier in your life, where in general, girls are expected to be and behave nice and boys will be boys.
Speaker 3:And of course, it's often us mothers who impose that stereotype because of our bias. And when we start changing that, that's how equality becomes and that's what I really hope to see more of in the world. So also us women taking our destiny in our hands. And then, of course, I do understand that I come from the Nordics, very privileged to be born in a very equal society. So I usually say that if you are European, especially from the Nordics. You have no excuses, especially from the Nordics you have no excuses. Then, of course, I understand that, depending on where in the world you are, it's going to be much harder to break some of the biases, but I do think that's important to be leading for change. Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, let's talk a little bit about mentorship. So, over your career, have you had mentors and, if so, how have they influenced you?
Speaker 3:That's a good question. I would say, like, my initial feeling is no, I haven't. But then it depends on what do you put into the word mentor. So have I had people? I discuss problems, understand perspective? Yes, I am very extroverted, so I do talk a lot with people and also try to listen, at least more than I talk, which doesn't always end very well, but I can't say like, okay, these are my two mentors. But looking back again at my career, of course there are different people throughout different stages that have been sounding boards, if that would make sense as a word, and here again a lot is my husband. So again, as we both are, let's say, different personalities, but share the same type of ambition and work ethics, we talk a lot about the challenges, even though he's in the actual construction industry, so he builds actual buildings.
Speaker 3:I do consider myself a builder, so I just build something that's a bit more intangible, but it's the same problems, it's the same challenges, with being in different phases, being hit by different challenges, and I always said that you know, shit hits the fan every day. That shit hits the fan every day. So the only thing I can do is prepare for the things that I want to prepare and then tolerate and react to the ones I couldn't foresee. And I think one of the biggest shit shows that hit was COVID. I mean, that was seriously something that, even though, looking back at my own career being in the telco industry doing a lot with people's data and transactions, being in the telco industry doing a lot with people's data and transactions and then in the banking industry never have I ever been looking at an operative risk that would be a pandemic. And then just to see how the world just stopped and people actually died, that was weird and now it feels like that's forever. And then how much that's changed.
Speaker 3:Also, especially in the payments industry pushed forward the whole cloud strategy, the whole scalability, contactless payments, digital lending, etc. Has been an interesting thing. So I do strongly believe that I have a shit show magnet. So I keep. I always find myself in an industry that's hit by something massive, like I was a bank CIO when the financial crisis hit back in 2008. But and then I was in the telco when the dot-com boom and crash hit. But it's been interesting now looking back and seeing how much that struggle needing to get things right actually in the end gives me a lot of energy and then moving forward, how much it has taught us. So yeah, it's been an interesting journey so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know your answer about the mentorship thing has been a very common one, I think. I think a lot of people, and maybe the younger people that are listening to this, think that mentorship has to be this kind of structured program and what the message seems to be from most people is that it doesn't Like you can learn something and call it mentorship. I mean, you know, it's your husband, it could be a book, it could be someone from out of the industry, it could be a relative. I mean, you don't have to feel like mentorship has to be this kind of corporate structured program. Ask questions, be inquisitive, be curious, I mean, and you'll have mentors, just out of that.
Speaker 3:Exactly. I think that's a really good observation and insight. It's like I have always believed in networking. So just talking with people, when people reach out, answer, comment, reach out because, as you said, when you will need help or advice, you will get it. I don't know anyone that have not received help. Of course you can get a no, but nobody died of a no. But what I do know is that the people that couldn't help me wasn't because they didn't want to, but they just either didn't have the time at that point when I needed it or they just didn't have the advice. But what they always did, they always tried to help me find, then, someone who could, and I think that's the whole idea, as you said, that it doesn't have to be so structured, and I think also from a founder perspective, I think that's a good advice.
Speaker 3:Also when it comes to when you build a company, what I do see a lot and hear a lot is that people somehow think that they're bored. So when you start a company, then you need to have some governance and then you start picking a board and then the earlier stages, you start picking a board and you take your mentors and then you're stuck with people in a board that actually doesn't bring stuff to the table. So I always try to give like my view on this is simple A board, especially early days. It's something you need to have. It's a governance body, so try to retain control as much as possible. But then have advisory boards where you can tell to the people like hey, I've asked four of you or five of you to my advisory board and it's a six-month or 12-month tenure or whatever, because you will change, the company will change, so the advices and the inputs you need will change. So, having the same people and then I also see that the world is full with people who want to give advice. You know the people who never have actually done it, but they think they have. They read the books and they saw the movies and they want to be part of something so bad that they feel that because of that, they have something to give. And I think that's the red flag. So when you choose mentors or advisors, whatever, you need to trust your gut as well, because if it feels weird or the chemistry doesn't work or like the advice sounds really off, then it probably is and it's not the right, because no one company is exactly the same. And also the fun fact is that the company will change. So, whether you like it or not, change is something that happens all the time. So don't try to build structures where you need to spend time with people. That won't bring anything.
Speaker 3:And I had one really good piece of advice from one very successful Finnish scale-up founder and we were talking about board meetings and I said how often do you have board meetings? Because, especially if you're an early-stage founder, you think that you will need to have board meetings once a month and then the company starts growing. And that's again a consequence when you are confusing advisor board and actual board. And he said, like when you are big enough, you don't want the board to meet more than every quarter because it takes, on average, at least one week of preparation for you as the CEO, at least one week of preparation for you as the CEO. So if you have, once a month, a board meeting, you will only be able to focus on execution for less than three weeks of that month. So try to have it at least less than once a quarter.
Speaker 3:And I think that was a good piece of advice. So just understanding that I'm confusing and mixing advisory items with must-have governance items, like understanding that I'm confusing and mixing advisory items with like must have governance items, and I think those are the things that I, at least, couldn't study when I did my MBA. I never heard about how do you actually build a company and, as such, I think there's a lot of good books out there nowadays on like by people who've actually done it, so I think those are also good, good reads, but not trying to do one-to-one, because whatever you're building, exactly like that by exactly a person like you, has never been done before. But there is a lot of inspiration you can take from others and at least try to avoid the same mistakes that others have already made. Right right.
Speaker 2:Well, if there's someone who's maybe just graduating from college, or they're in a different spot in their career, different industry, and they want to move into the payments industry, what's one to solve? If you have a clear problem you want to solve, fine.
Speaker 3:Then reach out to people in the industry that can give a bit of like you know, input on what are the things you should be looking at. Because, again, remembering when it's payments we talk about money flows and people's data. So not doing it right is not an option, because otherwise the consequence is going to be a bit too bad. But if that's just an industry so you've just graduated and it's an industry you want to work at, I would say try to get a job at an issuer or processor or somewhere, just to understand what it looks from the inside.
Speaker 3:Because looking back again at my career, having worked both sides of the table, has at least helped me a lot to understand how things work. What are the viewpoints coming in and, as such, when I'm selling our services and explaining why it would be beneficial to work with us, it's easier when I've been on the other side. So, again, in general, just learning to see other people's viewpoints is a good way to start, and then you might have this idea and, if nothing else, you might also find like me the co-founders and the technical people. I do think that the critical first 20 people who joined Enfuse to build it were people that I had already worked with, so I knew their capabilities. And then, of course, it's been a growth journey and I'm really interested. That's the fun part, but I think that's probably, I would say, what worked for me and what I could at least recommend to do.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, well, one last final kind of fun question. So when you look at your phone, what is the one app that's not business related that you use the most, and what does that say about you?
Speaker 3:The one app that is not business related and what it says about me, I would actually say it's Robes Rental, and it's actually a Finnish startup who is scaling up, where they focus on where you can rent really nice clothes from nice brands, where you can rent really nice clothes from nice brands. So what I do is like I have also a little bit of my own wardrobe because, as I am in this industry, there are some galas I need to attend, etc. And I like a nice dress, but it would be stupid to just have it hanging around in my wardrobe. So I actually have a wardrobe on the Robes Rental app where I can see people borrowing my dresses and then Robes takes care of it, and I actually earn a wardrobe on the ropes rental app where I can see people borrowing my dresses and then ropes takes care of it and I actually earn a little bit of money.
Speaker 3:So I keep showing my husband because he's sometimes a bit like why do you have like that expensive handbags? And I was like it's an investment. Look, it's making me money. So, yeah, that's actually yeah, but it's also a sustainability aspect, as you said, like there's a lot of people who buy everything firsthand and I do think, the circle and economy. So it's a nice thing. It makes me money and I can rent stuff that I only use a little bit and as such, it wouldn't make sense to put that much money on it. So, yeah, I think that's the only because otherwise all the other apps are parking apps or WhatsApp or like it's more work related.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right. Great Thanks for sharing that. So, monica, it's been a great conversation. I kind of just want to open the floor, see if there's anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to touch on, and if not, we can wrap up the show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we covered the basics and the details and the in-depth, and I think that your off-topic questions are actually really fun, because many of the things that you asked I've been asked before. But I actually haven't been asked this neither the dinner part nor the app part before. So thank you for that. That was fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, good. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. I know your time is very valuable, so again, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3:Thank, you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:And to all you listeners out there. I thank you for your time as well, and until the next story.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us this week on the Leaders in Payments podcast. Make sure you visit our website at leadersinpaymentscom, where you can subscribe to the show and where you'll find our show notes. If you enjoyed listening, please share on your social channels as well.